tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7560636882691523439.post3434068631639293681..comments2024-03-21T20:29:29.030+13:00Comments on Life Behind the <u>IR</u>on <u>D</u>rape: Gender Politics / Rape Culture: The Unbearable Silencing of Willie Jackson and John Tamihere.Mark Hubbardhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/02541153163041831880noreply@blogger.comBlogger11125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7560636882691523439.post-91115030753732133342013-11-15T17:43:05.993+13:002013-11-15T17:43:05.993+13:00Whoops.
Giovanni Tiso's campaign is one of un...Whoops.<br /><br />Giovanni Tiso's campaign is one of uniting a mob on a narrow issue to, as it has ended up, seek retribution. A market is simply one individual trading voluntarily with another, both seeking their self-interest, both gaining from every transaction, because a voluntary capitalist transaction is not a zero sum game: both parties gain value.Mark Hubbardhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02541153163041831880noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7560636882691523439.post-60769001229685047512013-11-15T17:39:30.412+13:002013-11-15T17:39:30.412+13:00Hi Katie, it's just about martini time Friday ...Hi Katie, it's just about martini time Friday here, after a long week. So, I can give my answer to your main concern: <i>The ongoing problem in your response is it still doesn't reconcile the problem of the market being the mob writ large and the mob being the constituents of the market.</i><br /><br />Quoting my post here:<br /><br />http://lifebehindtheirondrape.blogspot.co.nz/2013/05/of-market-signals-toilet-paper-and.html<br /><br />"Statists from both the Left and Right, though in every case regarding the Left, too often view the ‘free market’ as some type of cold, impersonal machine that rides cruelly over individuals, thus must be regulated by the caring hand of government. This could not be further from the truth. The market is, indeed, that most intensely personal thing: it’s you and me. It is as simple, but complex, as the expression of all the needs and desires of every individual in a market community searching for resolution, and the means by which those needs and desires are first matched, then priced and allocated as to the resources available. This wondrous social meeting place, based on the voluntary transaction, not the cold dictates of the machine of state, has increased the standard of living of all those communities that have embraced free markets, as well as bringing those communities the concomitant freedom that free markets exist on: there is no free market without freedom, and no freedom without a free market. It therefore follows, put the oafish fist of the central planner into that complex, living market place, that is, into the lives, hopes, and desires of individuals, at this crucial micro level, and despite it can take one hell of a shellacking, ultimately a market, and with it liberty, plus the community, will be destroyed."Mark Hubbardhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02541153163041831880noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7560636882691523439.post-81748901702599015802013-11-15T16:47:23.439+13:002013-11-15T16:47:23.439+13:00The ongoing problem in your response is it still d...The ongoing problem in your response is it still doesn't reconcile the problem of the market being the mob writ large and the mob being the constituents of the market.<br /><br /><br />People routinely lose their jobs for making mistakes. how do you feel about government or mob mandated laws that protect people from losing their jobs when they make mistakes?<br /><br />If people like Willie and JT lack the bargaining power to not lose their jobs over mistakes, where does the ordinary person stand?<br /><br />But again these two have not been silenced. They don't lack any ability to communicate that is accessible to you or me. A commercial broadcaster has decided to not broadcast them for the rest of the year (are they still being paid? possibly) because other commercial enterprises decided that associating their brand with these two would effect their marketability.<br /><br />My main objection to your point of view here is not with your discomfort with the outcome, nor even with conflating a commercial radio station not broadcasting someone with silencing them, but rather the notion that there is some fundamental difference between the mob and the market. But these advertisers didn't pull out because they were worried about the mob so much as worried about their marketability in the marketplace. The only reason "the mob" could sway the hand of advertisers is because their PR departments understand that they are just as much the market as they are the mob.<br /><br />When you say the mob shouldn't decide, how do you reconcile this with the fact that the market is the mob writ large.<br /><br />I don't think defending peoples' right to put their foot in their mouth and be offensive to a broad section of the population means you need to be run out of town, or even should necessarily lose your job, but I point out that there is no town in New Zealand that has run Willie and JT out. For reasons pertaining to the marketability, they are currently not being broadcast on this particular commercial radio station. I'm not being broadcast by that radio station either. Have I been run out of town and failed to notice?<br /><br />I also don't think your employer should be able to fire you for what you say in your free time, or even for making a single mistake on the job that you learned from, but that's an employment rights issue and if Willie and JT lack the negotiating power to protect themselves from their employer's decisions be they motivated by the mob or the market (or both since the market is the mob writ large) then where do ordinary New Zealanders who are not media celebrities stand in trying to negotiate employment contracts? On quick sand I might suggest. Yet wouldn't you leave such rights to the market, a.k.a. the mob writ large?chochttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09401165745918442330noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7560636882691523439.post-48980838293637264562013-11-15T16:43:04.997+13:002013-11-15T16:43:04.997+13:00This comment has been removed by the author.chochttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09401165745918442330noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7560636882691523439.post-49219571706000843492013-11-13T07:52:15.812+13:002013-11-13T07:52:15.812+13:00Albeit short, my piece had the nuance of Kundera&#...Albeit short, my piece had the nuance of Kundera's quotation, yet you've read it in a straight line, Katie.<br /><br />Nowhere in my post do I admit the ultimate result was wrong, necessarily, just that it did not 'sit right with me': and because I understand the evil of the mob baying for blood, over an individualistic sensibility, it still does not fit right with me.<br /><br />I vested myself mainly in the last two paragraphs, but some random points that are important to me:<br /><br />A man I have been following for a long time on Twitter, a very technical, reasoned man, who's opinion I have grown a lot of respect for, has said of the interview - which I no longer have a concern to listen to - quote:<br /><br /><i>" I did listen to Amy's interview and it could easily be mostly (&properly) playing devil’s advocate to elicit all her views."</i><br /><br />I suspect I would take that point of view over a mob that starts out bent on change, then converts to bent on retribution (that ugly thing).<br /><br />Giovanni Tiso has tweeted of at least one advertiser who is angry with what has happened. That advertiser was quite willing to accept Willie and JT's apology and continue on advertising, and became quite infuriated after saying so, and themselves coming into the mob's anger fuelled frame. That was their right to accept the apology.<br /><br />Back to my own stance, if I had my livelihood taken from me every time I made a mistake I'd be broke: we all would. I, too, would have been happy - if I listened to their show - with a personal apology, and thus changed behaviour. We learn from our mistakes, change, move on. Giovanni's campaign turned from light to dark, when it became a campaign not to show the presenters' they were necessarily wrong, but to seek retribution by taking their livelihoods from them.<br /><br />That's my opinion, that's what would have sat right with me. But I said quite plainly that what did happen breached none of the libertarian principles I hold. Good on Tiso.<br /><br />Regarding my last two paragraphs, don't ever confuse morality or the truth of an issue or fact, with having the numbers: when Galileo's lone voice stated the Earth moved around the Sun, the Catholic Church tried him for heresy: the opinion of the numbers didn't change the truth of Galileo though. So with many moral issues. That Kundera quotation is one of the wisest writings in our modern literature, informed as it is by an underlying humanity born of reasoned observation.<br /><br />I hate a mob in almost every instance. It's a sensibility that is part of me. I hated being forced to play team sports at school, I keep pretty much my own company, I don’t go on street protests even for issues I care for greatly. Because the mob can so easily turn against you. And especially as this particular mob also thinks they own my income and can tell me how to live my life regardless I harm no one. That is unfortunately the fundamental basis on which our democracy is constructed, a tyranny of the majority, in the ugly face of which my single voice saying no, that is immoral, will always be the truth.<br /><br />Here's an interesting question for you. Despite my vociferous condemnation of rape culture on my Rape Busters post, last year I wrote a post that defended the ability of a comedian, or person in certain circumstances, to make a rape joke (even if I would never do same). The post is below, does that make me guilty of the sins of Willie and JT? Am I to be run out of town by the mob also?<br /><br />http://lifebehindtheirondrape.blogspot.co.nz/2012/09/of-comedy-whaleoil-kimdotcom-freedom-of.html<br />Mark Hubbardhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02541153163041831880noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7560636882691523439.post-52943446669179436042013-11-12T23:52:46.395+13:002013-11-12T23:52:46.395+13:00I can see that you can see this was the result of ...I can see that you can see this was the result of the very voluntarism that you support, yet you reject the outcome. Can you offer a solution that doesn't rely on force?<br /><br />The oddest thing is that you seem able to lay all the dots out here but you just cannot or will not connect them. You cannot have a situation in which people can say whatever they want on the radio and be free from consequences without employing force because the only way to achieve this "freedom to be free from consequences" and "freedom to broadcast your message on a commercial radio station that doesn't want to broadcast you right now" is to bring force into play. <br /><br />Force the market participants you call a mob to shut up (revoke their freedom of expression), force advertisers to advertise and in effect endorse messages or people they don''t want their brand associated with (revoke their freedom of expression while forcing them to pay for that privilege), or force a commercial radio station to broadcast people who have caused the radio station a lot of trouble when the radio station perceives that it is not in its interest to do that.<br /><br />You might not like the result and it might remind you of outcomes you expect to see in the absence of voluntarism, but it is an outcome of voluntarism, entirely consistent with the processes you preach. <br /><br />Have you ever considered that the market you promote is also the mob you denigrate?<br /><br />What would happen if everyone else in the market stopped buying tobacco and sugary snacks? Do you think some commercial concern is going to produce these things at a loss for your benefit? <br /><br />If you can name a solution that doesn't entail force I'd be interested to read it (and "if only other people wouldn't is not a solution any more than the mob wishing you wouldn't smoke or eat sugary snacks is a solution to the concerns you attribute to them).chochttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09401165745918442330noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7560636882691523439.post-80005815170519729892013-11-12T13:42:21.697+13:002013-11-12T13:42:21.697+13:00I would like to think so.
However, our usual idi...I would like to think so. <br /><br />However, our usual idiot is away for a while.Shane Pleasancehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06144367923437327037noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7560636882691523439.post-63365708629655542752013-11-12T13:18:31.730+13:002013-11-12T13:18:31.730+13:00Still, it can't be easy being a Green candidat...Still, it can't be easy being a Green candidate in Southland? Mark Hubbardhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02541153163041831880noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7560636882691523439.post-66044134596154934712013-11-12T12:56:36.485+13:002013-11-12T12:56:36.485+13:00Yes there is.
http://localbodies-bsprout.blogspo...Yes there is. <br /><br />http://localbodies-bsprout.blogspot.co.nz/2013/11/roast-busters-rethink.html Invercargill Green Candidates take. Shane Pleasancehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06144367923437327037noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7560636882691523439.post-14453089238361422962013-11-11T21:56:04.407+13:002013-11-11T21:56:04.407+13:00Cheers Lindsay.
There's a dwindling number o...Cheers Lindsay. <br /><br />There's a dwindling number of us unfortunately.Mark Hubbardhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02541153163041831880noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7560636882691523439.post-26887879755241819342013-11-11T20:30:47.834+13:002013-11-11T20:30:47.834+13:00We may be largely talking to each other Mark, but ...We may be largely talking to each other Mark, but well said. Seriously.Lindsay Mitchellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04437693272797130833noreply@blogger.com