tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7560636882691523439.post732469611555105946..comments2024-03-21T20:29:29.030+13:00Comments on Life Behind the <u>IR</u>on <u>D</u>rape: Individualism, Euthanasia, Car Crashes & Purpose of Parliament | The Actual Social ContractMark Hubbardhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/02541153163041831880noreply@blogger.comBlogger13125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7560636882691523439.post-28168939870008445472015-02-20T07:20:27.121+13:002015-02-20T07:20:27.121+13:00Under the proposed law, only those with terminal i...Under the proposed law, only those with terminal illness, within a (judged) 12 months of death even qualify. Then, re the overseas examples, such a decision goes through a variety of people, including two trained, independent doctors, etc, to make sure no abuse, no coercion, etc.<br /><br />I don't have the Fallen view of humans that you and Brendan do, but even for the cynics there are plenty of safeguards.<br /><br />But as I've tried to say over and over. Even that is not the point: the basic right is. Classical liberals don't want the Nanny State between them and volition. Take your same argument, David, should the state be keeping us safe from ourselves and others in all sorts of ways? Dangerous sports, and past-times such as mountaineering; how can we allow that? Say you get cancer and decide you don't want chemo, et al, but would rather let the disease take its course: is that your right, or should the state force you to take treatment on the grounds perhaps your family are forcing you to take this line to get rid of you?<br /><br />See, take away volition, you give away your life.<br /><br />Euthanasia has strong safeguards, works well, for the first time will bring the already long practiced fact of euthanasia in NZ into the open: that's ethical.<br /><br />And again. My life. My death. Butt out. How hard is this?<br /><br />Mark Hubbardhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02541153163041831880noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7560636882691523439.post-71376026709336301242015-02-20T05:48:09.094+13:002015-02-20T05:48:09.094+13:00You may be right that experience elsewhere shows t...You may be right that experience elsewhere shows that the fear I hypothesised is ill founded. I still think that being concerned about the consequences is an understandable position. Whether it is contrary to libertarian or classically liberal thinking I don't really know. Is it contrary to liberal thinking to want to protect people from what you perceive as a threat to their life from others? The point being whether it would indeed be voluntary or whether elderly or sick people might be coerced into making a 'voluntary' decision. If you can convince people on that point you will have a much better response.davidhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00312282243883488495noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7560636882691523439.post-9784960760416227682015-02-18T22:35:01.608+13:002015-02-18T22:35:01.608+13:00Can I qualify that by saying you are right to reje...Can I qualify that by saying you are right to reject religion. I'm with you on that.Brendan McNeillhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02741263914308842497noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7560636882691523439.post-31352691114799716192015-02-18T22:33:35.960+13:002015-02-18T22:33:35.960+13:00You know religion, but you do not know God.You know religion, but you do not know God.Brendan McNeillhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02741263914308842497noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7560636882691523439.post-32804250985330113142015-02-18T22:18:33.848+13:002015-02-18T22:18:33.848+13:00As you know, atheist ex-Exclusive Brethren. I know...As you know, atheist ex-Exclusive Brethren. I know God all right :)Mark Hubbardhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02541153163041831880noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7560636882691523439.post-22383449444624720992015-02-18T22:13:50.928+13:002015-02-18T22:13:50.928+13:00Mark, didn’t realize you were a theologian. ☺Mark, didn’t realize you were a theologian. ☺Brendan McNeillhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02741263914308842497noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7560636882691523439.post-83286317141739990572015-02-18T22:05:19.195+13:002015-02-18T22:05:19.195+13:00Oh, and euthanasia is about compassion and love. G...Oh, and euthanasia is about compassion and love. God, however, is not.Mark Hubbardhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02541153163041831880noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7560636882691523439.post-32361027619374432122015-02-18T22:02:50.341+13:002015-02-18T22:02:50.341+13:00God has his hands over your eyes, obviously, Brend...God has his hands over your eyes, obviously, Brendan, as you seem incapable of reading what I write.<br /><br />Look at the highly populated jurisdictions where euthanasia is ethically practised. See my comment to David. There are safeguards to ensure that scenario doesn't happan.<br /><br />And again, it doesn't change the principle of the basic right, just as hundreds of road deaths every year leads no one to the conclusion we mustn't have cars or roads.Mark Hubbardhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02541153163041831880noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7560636882691523439.post-66490870484726520722015-02-18T21:54:30.747+13:002015-02-18T21:54:30.747+13:00Mark, 'voluntary' or not you cannot escape...Mark, 'voluntary' or not you cannot escape the reality of David's scenario. You cannot escape the pressure that is placed upon a loved one to end their own life in order to serve the 'common good' of the family.<br /><br />You live in a world of iconic individualism, where everyone supposedly makes choices in their own self-interest. Such a world does not exist except in the mind of the ideological libertarian.<br /><br />Like all ideologies it fails to take into account the human condition. We are not shaped by self -interest alone, we are not immune to the influence of family and 'friends' we are not completely autonomous self-governing individuals choosing for our own personal highest good.<br /><br />We are broken, frail human beings seeking to make the best of what life has offered up to us. Your clinical ideology of libertarianism makes no room for love, compassion, forgiveness, empathy, grace and beauty. It makes no room for what it means to be fully human.<br /><br />It is an anemic ideology based upon legalism and rights, devoid of beauty humour and irony. It is my friend a death cult most perfectly expressed in the desire for death on demand.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /> <br />Brendan McNeillhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02741263914308842497noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7560636882691523439.post-53870090317472050582015-02-18T19:05:19.766+13:002015-02-18T19:05:19.766+13:00David
Firstly, I don't condemn those who don&...David<br /><br />Firstly, I don't condemn those who don't agree, I'm simply saying they're not libertarians or classical liberals, and their disagreement doesn't count, because it's voluntary. In a free society they don't get to determine what I can do if I am not harming or coercing them.<br /><br />Regarding your red herring about old granny euthanised to avoid rest home expense, let me quote a previous post of mine:<br /><br />'... Such issues are manageable, proven by those jurisdictions where dying with dignity is legal, the populations of which are not inconsiderable: namely, euthanasia where it is legal in Belgium, Netherlands and Luxembourg, but also countries/counties where assisted suicide is legal: Switzerland, Germany, Colombia, Japan, plus the US states of Washington, Oregon, Vermont, New Mexico and Montana. Although even this remains wholly beside the point, which is that such issues are to be managed, yes, but just as road deaths do not justify banning driving cars, these points in no way change the important principle that it remains a basic individual right to die in a manner we desire, and it is the right of those doctors who mercifully agree with this, to provide such a service. '<br /><br />Further, the hospice association of Montana were against assisted dying when Montana brought it in, but after five years were so impressed with how the law was operating swung in behind it.<br /><br />Now, given euthanasia operates ethically in all those above jurisdictions to give many thousands a dignified death, as opposed to a horrendous one, state whether you are for an against. State whether part of your position is informed by religious conviction.Mark Hubbardhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02541153163041831880noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7560636882691523439.post-85933541617285046822015-02-18T19:03:30.385+13:002015-02-18T19:03:30.385+13:00Get this through your head, Brendan. Euthanasia is...Get this through your head, Brendan. Euthanasia is voluntary; if you want to live in pointless pain and indignity as mindless subservience to the fairy tale you believe in, bully for you, but just as I would never force you into anything against your will, please get your medieval superstitution away from my volition :) It's not too much to ask, surely.Mark Hubbardhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02541153163041831880noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7560636882691523439.post-35102827376708808882015-02-18T18:34:55.582+13:002015-02-18T18:34:55.582+13:00David’s point while not a philosophical argument i...David’s point while not a philosophical argument is based upon practical expediency.<br /><br />Libertarianism does not take into account the frailty of the human condition. If it is taken to its logical conclusion, every adult prostitute is ‘in the game’ because he or she has a passion for it, every heroin addict is simply expressing his or her individual right to choose as a consenting adult.<br /><br />Of course we all know that’s nonsense, but that is the shortcoming of every ideology. It is dependant upon the free will and consent of human beings absent human failure deceit and coercion. <br /><br />Such a world only exists in the libertarian’s imagination.<br />Brendan McNeillhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02741263914308842497noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7560636882691523439.post-13642817987597379292015-02-18T17:56:24.628+13:002015-02-18T17:56:24.628+13:00I agree with your argument for euthanasia. I don&#...I agree with your argument for euthanasia. I don't agree with your condemnation of those who disagree. When mother is beyond home help, logic might suggest that a painless death is better than the family fortune being wasted on a few years of rest home existence. I have seen the pressures that creates. I can understand why someone would be in fear of the outcomes were the law to be changed. davidhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00312282243883488495noreply@blogger.com